Adventist History Podcast
Adventist History Podcast

Season 2, Episode 40 · 6 months ago

(S2, E40): Questions on Doctrine, part 4



In this episode, Matthew talks about Walter Martin and Donald Grey Barnhouse's five articles in Eternity discussing the reasons why they came to see Adventists as evangelicals. And then we talk about the huge evangelical counter-revolution that aimed to keep Adventists in cult-prison.

The What:

The Adventist History Podcast is a monthly podcast telling a story of the Seventh-day Adventist Church hosted by Matthew J. Lucio.






D twenty two. It's a very significant day in the history of our beginning. Welcome to the aveness history podcast. This is season two, episode forty. Questions on doctrine, part four. Last time we talked about the final meetings between the evangelicals in the adventists in their efforts to determine whether adventists were human, I mean Evangelical Christians. We talked about Le Roy FROOM's efforts to stamp down on avenues mixed messaging and to present a united front, and we talked about the plan to publish a series of articles and Barnhouses Eternity magazine giving the results of these conferences. Now Martin was to follow up, is, follow up all of this with a book about seventh day adventists, and adventist were to follow that book up with the book of their own, a book that would become questions on doctrine. The first of these articles came out as planned, with barnhouse announcing that adventists were indeed Christians. Let's begin by taking a few steps back back to when young Walter Martin went to visit his boss and friend Donald Gray Barnhouse to convince this barnhouse that Avenu is deserved a fair hearing. Now Martin describes the conversation this way. Quote. You taught me that the unity of the body of Christ was the primary task of Christians and that we are to maintain that unity. He said, correct. I said, now, if these people are members of the body of Christ and we treat them as enemies, God can't bless us, and he said that's true, and I said let's find out. Let me find out. Do you trust me? Absolutely, he said. I said then, let me find out, and he said do it. and quote. Now Martin was recalling this conversation decades after Barnhouse is death, and I'm sure Martin is truncating this conversation right. It puts Barnhouse in a rather passive role, which probably wasn't exactly how it happened, but no doubt the substance is probably accurate and it helps us to to locate the full chrome around which everything else in our story pivots. Trust. Did barnhouse trust Martin enough to be open to wherever his research led to back up his conclusions? Did the GC leaders trust Martin enough to open up to him? Did adventist members trust their leaders enough that they would represent their faith well? Did even jelical readers of eternity trust their leaders,...

...their editors, to represent their faith well? Because in the end this is about trust. Now barnhouse is first article about Avin, disappeared in September one thousand nine hundred and fifty six in eternity magazine. Before barnhouse declared adventist to be Christians, he explained the fruit of those meetings to the evangelical readers like a politician making peace to end the war. He knew the concerns that evangelicals had because he had shared them. Many of these concerns will be familiar, just to remind you, concerns over ellenoites writings being equal to the Bible, concerns over whether you need to keep the Sabbath to be saved, concerns over whether avenues think they are the only remnant church, the only people were going to be saved. Concerns about whether Aven is taught that Satan was to scapegoat, the Sin Bearer in the day of Atonement typology. Concern over adventist evangelists, including HMS Richards is Popular Voice of Prophecy Program not identifying themselves as adventists. That was something that bothered evangelicals in awful lot. And beyond all of that, there was this helpable annoyance among evangelical readers in leaders that adventist proselytize those Evangelical Church members, for instance evangelical missionaries. They go overseas, they work hard to evangelize people, just for avenues to show up in their mission field and steal some of those converts and it's like Hey, focus on the other people, the unreached people, don't just show up just to steal Sunday Christians. Okay, that really bothered evangelicals a lot. Now barnhouse acted as if he won reassurances or concessions from adventists on all of these issues. A reassurance that avenues did not see ellenoites writings is equal to the Bible and did not believe you had to keep the Sabbath to be saved, and a concession that the voice of Prophecy and signs of the Times would now start identifying themselves as adventists. So barnhouse rights this first article kind of like see, this is the fruit of all of our labor. They reassured US this, they promised that they clarified this. You know, we're in a better spot now. We understand them better. In life is going to be better for us is evangelicals as well because of these conferences. Now, in true barnhouse fashion, after spending a good fifty percent of the article explaining all that he thought strange or objectionable about adventism, he finally admitted in the final paragraph that he was, quote, delighted to do justice to a much maligned group of sincere believers and, quote, and to call them Christians. You could almost feel his delight almost now. Martin took over in October and one thousand nine hundred and fifty six to talk about the history of the seventh day Iven his church, including the role of Elwhite in that history. He largely avoids the debate over ellenwoite arguing, quote, to refute Llen gy either as a person or theologically, is certainly not to refute seventh day adventism per se, for...

...there are schools of interpretation within the seventh day an his movement which disagree with Ellen G White's interpretations on some points. and quote. who were these avenues who disagreed with Ellen White? Martin doesn't say now. Martin second article appeared in November, one thousand nine hundred and fifty six, and answer the question of whether adventism's distinctive theology disqualified it from being considered a Christian Martin divided it all up into three neat categories. First are what he called the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith, things like the Trinity, Virgin Birth so on. The next category was alternative views on secondary things. It's very catchy to him. That means calvinism versus arminianism, or historicist eschatology versus futurist eschatology. The third category was made up of truly unique doctrines belonging to adventism, like the inspiration of Ellen White and the investigative judgment. Martin assured the readers that in the first category, the one that mattered to him, the most adventists were Orthodox. Martin represented his efforts as the only serious study of adventism. Knowing that evangelicals held popular misconceptions about Avenus, popular prejudices that would be hard to dislodge, Martin closed with a Parthian shot at his fellow evangelicals. Quote in order to have something to say against adventism. Many have been content to say anything and quote the Martin's final article, is third one, was more of the same. It again examined the controversial bits of avenues theology, took another shot at his fellow evangelicals just for fun, and Martin charged that some in here he was thinking of, men like Louis Talbot, I believe, repeated the lazy slander against adventist in order to sell books and tracks. True Seventh Day adventism, Martin said, quote, despite its differences from us, is one with us in the great work of winning men to Jesus Christ, and quote now. There was one more article in the series, written by Donald Gray Barnhouse, which we will discuss and I don't know, twenty minutes. But the reaction that flooded eternity came because of the first four articles. These avenues, evangelical conferences in the books and articles that followed ignited a new interest within evangelicalism to talk about avenues and sometimes to know more about seventh day avenues. On the last day of one thousand nine hundred and fifty six time magazine published three articles on religion, three short articles. Toward the back the first article reported on a text found among the Dead Sea Scrolls which described a freshly born noah coming out of the womb and immediately talking with God. So yeah,...

...that image will keep you up at night. The second story was about, and I kid you not. I kid you, Nott, how a jesuit doctoral student named Robert busa wanted to study all of the uses of the word in in the writings of Thomas Aquinas. That's right, in i. n. This Jesuit spent four years on the project but was unable to finish because people use the word in a lot. So he went to America. He met Thomas J Watson, the founder of IBM, and then devoted the next seven years to working with IBM nerds in order to input all of the writings of Thomas Aquinas into an IBM computer so he could find every occurrence where Thomas Aquinas used the word in, as well as the immediate context, six words before the word in, six words after the word in. And after eleven years on this project and with all ten thousand of the punch cards of Thomas Aquinas's writings inserted into the computer, the search still took another eight thousand, one hundred and twenty five hours near the year to complete in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven. BUSA admitted that he had spent one point eight million hours of labor on this project over his lifetime, and to that I just want to say, dude, just use Google next time. The third religion story in time that week was entitled piece with the Adventists. Now, as you might expect, it covered the reproach Mont between Barnhouse Martin in the avenues. In an unfortunate turn of phrase for evidence, the article reads, quote. As a result of his meaning Martin's researches, fundamentalists have stretched out a hand in the seventh day. Adventists have accepted it gladly and quote. Now I say it's unfortunate because ellen white wrote a wellknown warning, in great controversy, about Protestants reaching their hand across the Gulf to grasp the hand of Catholicism. And while Catholics aren't involved in this article, but the idea of Protestants reaching their hand out to grab avenues instead must have unsettled a few evidence who are who were aware of this on the white statement. anyways, the article also included this line quote, defending their sectarianism in an unfriendly world made adventists a prickly people. and quote, I suppose that is true to an extent. Evidence could be very defensive and aggressive towards other Christians. But really, Time magazine, have you met the fundamentalists? However tepid the feelings for adventism in time, some evangelicals nevertheless saw the time article as a strong endorsement of adventism, I guess, because avenues were mentioned. Jan Carol Van Balen,...

...a calvinist who, like Walter Martin, was a wellknown author in the countercult movement, declared that avenues avenes theology, especially the theology of the investigative judgment. Quote. Is Not the innocent little hobby of Seven Day avenues that Barn House and Martin in Time magazine would have us believed that it is. In quote. Von Balan began, like many fundamentalist evangelicals of their day, of his day, with a Hermoneutic of suspicion toward have vensis. When von Balen learned that avenues we're going to publish what he called an eight hundred page statement of their beliefs, what would be titled Questions and doctrine it was really only seven hundred and twenty, so let's not exaggerate here. He was positively conspiratorial. Quote. Is this perhaps to make confusion more confounded? Most credle statements are brief to the point, boiled down and clear cut, and quote as van Balen really annoyed or suspicious because questions and doctrine is too long. Avantis are explaining too much, you know. I mean what if questions a doctrine were like twenty pages, or a hundred pages even? Would he just turn around and argue that it was enough of an explanation? You know, they're hiding too much. We're not getting enough out of them. But now that it's seven hundred plus pages, it's too long. You guys are trying to confuse confused people by publishing this overly long book that that is just going to go in circles, I guess, and and no one's going to read because it's too long. I what do you want? Just what do you want from us, buddy? Besides over the long books, it's kind of our thing. Time was in it's heyday in the S, with millions of subscribers. He turned to the on the other hand, only had about thirty three thousand subscribers. By contrast, just to kind of situate that number, they even as signs of the Times magazine, gained fortyzero subscribers in just the first nine months of one thousand nine hundred and fifty seven. All right, signs is overall subscription base was was ten times that of eternity. But by eternity had its finger on the evangelical pulse. People who were people in the Evangelical Movement Read Eternity and after reading Martin and Barnehouse's articles about avenues, that pulse was racing. The pivot toward embracing avenues almost destroyed eternity. Elevenzero subscribers, one third of all their subscribers, canceled their subscription. Herbert as bird wrote an epic letter to the editor. It was long and it outlined the reasons why he didn't think avenues should be considered evangelical. In the end he compared avenues desire for friendship to that of the Soviet Union and in Avedence wrote back saying yeah, not a great comparison. One woman called eternities position on Avenus nothing short of absurd and suggested that eternity was tied to this evidence heresy.

Another person demanded that evenus apologize for their heresy before they would be considered Christians some of eternity. These readers weren't content sending their letters to the magazine. One woman, a former avenues it turns out, began writing both the Barnhouse and to the general conference president, Ruben frigure, venting her frustrations. Martin responded to some of these points directly. Barnhouse responded more generally, preaching about Christian unity in the sin of prejudice. Now, Barnhouse did go after Martin's old nemesis, Lewis Talbot. Talbot hadn't softened up a bit since he met from at the Prophecy Congress, which we talked about in our last episode. If anything, he doubled down by mailing thousands of tracks asking is barnhouse right? Spoiler alert. He doesn't think Barnhouse is right. It seems that Barnhouse had talbot squarely in mind when he growled about prejudice in the church. Now, as I said, this controversy prompted a wider discussion in evangelicalism. The Sunday School Times published a lion share of a fifty two page tract against adventism. The author concluded that advantism was not worth a moment's consideration. Articles in the magazine our hope supported eternity and welcome to Avenus to the Evangelical fold. The blowback hit the editors of our hope as well. The Baptist Pastor blasted barn house and Martin for compromising. Quote all that is Evangelical, and quote all of it. The manager of a Christian Bookstore wrote that he will no longer carry our hope because, quote, we can have no part in this deception and quote. Some mocked the editor, e Schuyler, English for becoming an adventist. To balance things out, English commissioned an evangelical missionary to write seven articles against adventism. For our hope. Martin gave an interview to a magazine called Christian life. In response, E B Jones himself, that ex Avenus, whom Barnhouse had leaned on to support his anti avenus views, wrote to call Martin Gullible and that Avenus had deceived him. And this ended up being the cross roads of the struggle. Barnhouse and Martin argued that evangelicals owed it to everybody to get their facts straight, to reject prejudice and to come with an open mind. People like Jones and others argued that you can't trust adventist and if you come with an open mind, they're going to deceive you because that's what they do. So it came down to will you trust the work that Barn House and Martin did, or will you give in to your suspicions and fears about adventists, because in the end this is about trust. Now Martin de Han, the the best selling author at Zandovan, and I mean the best selling author at Xandovan. This is where, of course, Martin, Walter Martin, worked and in de Hans summoned Martin, in Martin's words, quote, chewed me out for forty five minutes nuts as only... Han could, and quote, the Han threatened to not publish another book with the to Zondervan brothers if they printed Martin's book on Seventh Day adventism. The zondervan brothers replied, according to Martin, quote, well, the Han, we don't want to lose you. We love you and that means a great deal to us. But if Walter is telling the truth, this is a landmark issue. We want to get out there and tell the truth about it. It is really a breakthrough and we are going to print it and quote. It. Made no difference in one thousand nine hundred and sixty two Han would dismiss the avenues evangelical conferences in two lines. Quote. Seventh day AVIDENTISM has not changed one iota. It is the same bigoted movement of error and clever deception it has been from its inception. and quote. Louis Talbot brought gasoline to the Party and preceded the spread it everywhere. He released his own series of articles in the king's business called why Seventh Day adventism is not evangelical. Talbot repeated claims that he had been making four years and years and years, apparently not trusting anything barnhouse or Martin had reported from their conversations with avenues leaders. Every single thing Talbot wrote had already been addressed by the avenence leaders during these conferences, either either directly their avenues had written about it themselves, or through Martin in Barnhouse. Talbot showed absolutely no interest taking the pulpit of a petty demagogue. Talbot said Eternity's shameful betrayal and in that Martin and Barnehouse were responsible for all the souls who would be lost because of this. Talbot appreciated the words of another evangelical, probably the Han, if you asked me who. Called it the greatest shock I have received in my ministry. Talbot Labeled Avenue Doctrine is poisonous, called avenues fanatics and lamented their terrible heresies as opposed to the, I guess, the good heresies that you can have. Quote. In reading their arguments, one is impressed that there is indeed something satanic about such a rapid brand of religiosity. and quote. The managing editor of the King's business added an article of his own, calling it a personal message to seventh day adventist. Of course it wasn't a message to all seventh day avenues, as he made abundantly clear in his very first sentence. Quote. This personal message is only for those few seven day avenues who are not afraid the test God's word. and quote. Hey Buddy, now that you've insalted me, let me hear what you have to say. What he had to say was naive. He has to avenues members to pray and to read the Bible for two weeks, forgetting their adventism, not reading any footnotes or Ellen White, and just trust that the Holy Spirit would lead them to a different path. While these evangelical editors twirled their pens and called fire down in each other from their dueling heights in the ivory towers below, local evangelicals...

...found ways to weigh in as well. In Duluth, Minnesota, a pastor stopped by an evangelical bookstore to pick up a copy of eternity. He grabbed the September issue though, the one where barnhouses first article appears, and then reached for his money. The cashier stopped him. I was told the pastor wrote, quote, that the issue was not being sold because of the compromising article about seventh day adventism. In quote. The same thing happened at other evangelical bookstores across the country. They weren't going to sal eternity so long as these pro avenus articles or in them. Christianity today, which is relatively brand new on the scene, published several articles both about adventism and by seventh day avenus themselves, and as a new evangelical publication, it avoided the acidic tone of Talbot's Tirades Herbert Bird, who had written a critical letter to eternity about avenues, he resumed his argument in Christianity today. Bird was a missionary and had a pretty, pretty good grasp of adventism, I would say. While he didn't think Avendes should be considered, in his words, just another evangelical denomination, bird admired avenues on several fronts. He called Avenue zeal astonishing and said that the army of avenues, literature, evangelists and students should make evangelicals jealous, because Aven has really got the concept of the priesthood of all believers. But most of all, bird admired that avenue had standards. You couldn't drink coffee, you had to observe the Sabbath strictly. They asked for ten percent of your income, is tie, and then more besides his offerings. And yet bird said, they're still one of the fastest growing Christian groups in the world. We shouldn't be lowering our standards as evangelicals, because look at them. They have higher standards than we do, they have more rules than we do and they're growing like crazy. Now I haven't is felt they had been vindicated and as we will talk about, we'll talk about that a little bit more than the next episode. But the fierce backlash that accompanied that vindication made it clear that it was only a partial vindication. Evangelicals were willing to go to war with each other in order to preserve the opinion that adventism was a cult. This opinion wasn't going to be changed because the AVENS church published questions and doctrine either. It's not that Louis Talbot was waiting for better arguments from the avenue. Okay, many evidence today have good relationships with evangelicals and vice versa. Local Christian schools are happy to accept avenue students today and they often will make accommodation for for Sabbath or for whatever other things evanesce are, you know, vegetarianism, whatever it may be. But you know, and I would imagine, just in all fairness, there's probably a lot of evangelical schools that were okay with avenues in the S as well. But it's important understand that it wasn't always so easy for avenues to be heard, to be...

...welcomed, to be accepted in in Christian circles, especially evangelical circles. Even today on Youtube you'll find dozens of videos very easily by the way, of prominent evangelicals casually calling adventist a cult like it's no big deal. Those evangelicals may not have the influence their forefathers had, but the feeling has never quite gone away and when we talk about the blowback from the evangelical avenues conferences, we're talking about something that is still happening. Not makes you wonder if the editor of time, who had written that original article they had titled Peace With Adventists, makes you wonder if they had noticed that evangelicals were tearing each other to treads over this socalled piece with adventists. The time article included the line that read, quote, it has taken a long time to bury the enmities and quote. But were they buried? Not all the letters were negative, of course. One writer from Canada didn't understand all of the controversy. He said, Hey, I'm a baptist. I don't agree with with those who baptize infants, but don't we still consider them fellow Christians? Yeah, we have differences with the avenues, but why does that stop us from considering them fellow Christians. He wrote, quote, we need to have more love and quote. An economists wrote approvingly to eternity to say that he had met a fellow economist and Avenust at an event some years back. Neither of them drank, so they naturally bonded with each other drinking, drinking pop or well, he said Soda, but I'm from the Midwest, so it's pop and and he realized that this avenues colleague was a fellow Christian. As eternity bled subscribers, however, the Executive Secretary of the publisher wrote a letter to set the record straight. He said that seventy percent of all the letters eternity had received about Avinus we're in fact positive, but they just didn't print all the positive stuff because, well, I mean the articles themselves were fairly positive about avenues and so they wanted to be balanced, so they published the a lot of these negative articles just to show some sort of editorial integrity here. Now the the Executive Secretary for the publisher went on. You know, we're letting you guys know seventy percent of the letters are positive. Okay, it's not so dire, but nevertheless, why don't you take advantage of the Christmas season and by a subscription for a friend. It's like, you know, we want to put on a brave face here, but we really need you to sub...

...subscribe. Seventy percent of the letters may have been positive, but thirty three percent of the subscribers leaving was not positive. Okay, you can write all the Nice letters you want, but so long as a third of your readers are canceling their subscriptions, that's probably a statistic that matters a little bit more. Yet Barne House and Martin, to their credit, stuck to their guns and they said that my one thousand nine hundred and fifty eight they had gained more subscribers than they have ever had, and it is rumored that many of those new subscribers were adventist. Even today, it's unclear how the majority of evangelicals felt about these events. Many evangelicals had clearly come to know avenues personally and that sort of disarmed them spiritually. Whatever Eb Jones would have them believe about avidus being trained to deceive you, which is is kind of funny when you read this, because all this kind of Jesuit hyping that even is do. This is basically what Ev Jones is saying about avenues like they're you know, they're just they're they're their masters at deception, their masters that spiritual camouflage. You know they'll infull trade and change things that. It wasn't real big on the infiltration theme, I guess, but you know, it's just I guess turn about is fair play. anyways, whatever he would have you believe about avenues being trained to deceive you, those evangelicals, the everyday evangelicals, came to see their evidence friends as fellow Christians. Many of them did, not all of them. Many of them did, because for them it really wasn't about doctrine, it was about decency, friendship more than argument. Broke walls of prejudice. Where barnhouse and Martin pushed on that prejudiced they found that a surprising number of the readers had already come to the same conclusions they had, not on the basis of devoting thousands of hours to study the issue, but just based on knowing real living adventists and worked in with them and seeing they're just like me. Maybe they're a little bit weird here and a little bit weird there, but they're just like me. They have integrity. They care about me. What's the big deal? So it's worth realizing that books like questions and doctrine or barn house and Martin's articles in eternity, they were written for a certain type of evangelical and intellectually engaged kind, somebody who takes the doctrines very, very seriously and, you know, want to make sure people are are are in line with them and every particular point now is with that described. Most evangelicals, are most adventists like that? Are they worried about the broad landscape of doctrine and where every hill and dip is right?...

We're going to map this out? Well, perhaps not, but for those who controlled the ink and pain, this was a controversy and saying since the ink and pain has been preserved, we might be tempted to think that this controversy consumed more of people's attention back then then it really did. Again, we just don't know how the majority of avenues, in the majority of evangelicals felt about such things. We just see the people trying to work them up and we see the people trying to calm them down. And of course we have a number of letters from readers, people who like to be theologically informed and up to date on what preacher so and so is teaching these days, right and what's going on over here. Those those theological enthusiasts, they care. But you know, did the housewife in the Pew? Did the unemployed man in the Pew care as much about these things? We just don't know, and so we ought to be careful when we see that the fire coming from Talbot or Tohn or somebody else. We ought not just say, wow, all of these people felt this way. No, not all of these people. Certainly, it could be a majority, it could be a very vocal minority. We just don't know how how widespread these feelings were. Now it wasn't until the end of one thousand nine hundred and fifty s Evan that Donald Gray barnhouse picked up his pen to publish a final article in the series. Martin's book was supposed to have arrived at the end of one thousand nine hundred and fifty six. It didn't. Questions and doctrine was supposed to arrive a month later in January, in one thousand nine hundred fifty seven. It didn't. Perhaps Barnhouse was waiting for questions and doctrine to finally appear, which it did later on in one thousand nine hundred and fifty seven, a full year after Barnhouse's first article. Barnehouse is postscript. It's what he called it was basically an introduction to qod, but he added this insight quote. Eternity lost some subscribers by telling the truth about the adventist this we regret. We feel sure that this was due to an apparent misunderstanding of the issue. We are delighted, however, that many who canceled have renewed their subscription because they have come to understand the matter and realized that we were motivated by Christian love and quote. What was at stake here for Barnhouse was a matter of justice. For his entire life, the man wanted to be correct about everything and to correct others as well. And if there was a possibility that adventist were being, as he would later put it, maligned and persecuted for decades by him and his fellow Evangelicals, well then he wanted to set the record straight. And he have heed lost some subscribers from it, then so be it.

It was an issue of Christian integrity to him, and despite the mortal financial threat that this integrity posed to his magazine and the loss of respect he might suffer from his friends. Barnhouse felt it paid off in the end. BARNHOUSE quoted in avenues as having said, quote, the editors of eternity have communicated more with us in two years then the whole Protestant Church did in over a hundred years, because they came to us in the spirit of Christian love. and quote. Now, that last bit wasn't exactly true, was it? Martin recalled him and from yelling at each other in some of their meetings and Roy Anderson sitting there and saying now, brethren, we must be calm here. I don't know why my Roy Allen Anderson voice sounds a little bit like Ronald Reagan. Anyways, the point is Martin didn't exactly show up with an olive branch. Okay, they didn't show up in the spirit of Christian love, but but that's how it turned out, and I suppose the rough start can be forgiven. Barnhouse went on from quoting that avenues to say, quote more than I can say, I am glad for this because this is the crowning desire of my life. That men shall know that we are his disciples because we love one another. And quote, you know what, Donald Gray Barnhouse, it turned out just fine. Long after unrue Barnhouse read and from were dead, Martin remembered these days with a passion. To this day, he told someone quote. I don't think I have met for finer men of Christian integrity then our a Anderson Toe unru l e from in we read, or, for that matter, Ted heppenstall more in him later, men of God who really worked earnestly trying to find answers. They realize that separation between members of the body of Christ on Peripheral Theology is sin and this sin had to be cleared away. The debris had to be cleaned up and if there was a real basis, then there should be fellowship. and quote, Martin, like Barnhouse, saw a moral imperative in the situation. For Christians to be separated like this on minor issues is sin. He says. We have to sort through this debris and figure out if there is just cause for our separation. For many having us, like many evangelicals we read about today,...

...there was just cause. Evangelicals had rejected the truth of the Sabbath, of the sanctuary, of the three angels message, and in the past they had helped pass Sunday laws and local preachers. All Man's story after story after story of local Sunday preachers, of evangelical preachers who oppose the evidence message wherever they could, telling their members don't go to those avenues, meetings for these avenues. All that history just couldn't disappear the theological issues that Martin considered peripheral, or anything but peripheral to these avenues, these avenues where we're feeling that same sense of betrayal by Leroy froom and the gang that that evangelicals felt with Barnhouse and Martin. They didn't trust them. In fact they didn't know who they could trust at the general conference. Maybe they were all in on it was. This part of the last days. These questions and more coalesced and were given life by one man, merely in Laurds, Andreasen and Andreas and would speak for the concerned, he would champion their cause, maybe he would help save the seventh they have in his church. It's in the end it's all about trust. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

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